Steve Wilson joins us for our first Chats on the Road to RSA Conference, breaking down how AI is reshaping cybersecurity—not by replacing humans, but by helping them see more, understand faster, and act smarter. This episode challenges assumptions about visibility, automation, and learning, offering a sharp look at what actually works in today’s security operations.
In a conversation that sets the tone for this year’s RSA Conference, Steve Wilson, shares a candid look at how AI is intersecting with cybersecurity in real and measurable ways. Wilson, who also leads the OWASP Top 10 for Large Language Models project and recently authored a book published by O’Reilly on the topic, brings a multi-layered perspective to a discussion that blends strategy, technology, and organizational behavior.
Wilson’s session title at RSA Conference—“Are the Machines Learning, or Are We?”—asks a timely question. Security teams are inundated with data, but without meaningful visibility—defined not just as seeing, but understanding and acting on what you see—confidence in defense capabilities may be misplaced. Wilson references a study conducted with IDC that highlights this very disconnect: organizations feel secure, yet admit they can’t see enough of their environment to justify that confidence.
This episode tackles one of the core paradoxes of AI in cybersecurity: it offers the promise of enhanced detection, speed, and insight, but only if applied thoughtfully. Generative AI and large language models (LLMs) aren’t magical fixes, and they struggle with large datasets. But when layered atop refined systems like user and entity behavior analytics (UEBA), they can help junior analysts punch above their weight—or even automate early-stage investigations.
Wilson doesn’t stop at the tools. He zooms out to the business implications, where visibility, talent shortages, and tech complexity converge. He challenges security leaders to rethink what visibility truly means and to recognize the mounting noise problem. The industry is chasing 40% more CVEs year over year—an unsustainable growth curve that demands better signal-to-noise filtering.
At its heart, the episode raises important strategic questions: Are businesses merely offloading thinking to machines? Or are they learning how to apply these technologies to think more clearly, act more decisively, and structure teams differently?
Whether you’re building a SOC strategy, rethinking tooling, or just navigating the AI hype cycle, this conversation with Steve Wilson offers grounded insights with real implications for today—and tomorrow.
🎧 Tune in to hear how organizations can strike the balance between smart machines and smarter humans.
Guest: Steve Wilson, Founder and Co-Chair at OWASP GenAI Security Project | On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilsonsd/
Hosts:
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber] | On ITSPmagazine: https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast | On ITSPmagazine: https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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This Episode’s Sponsors
ThreatLocker: https://itspm.ag/threatlocker-r974
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SandboxAQ: https://itspm.ag/sandboxaq-j2en
Archer: https://itspm.ag/rsaarchweb
Dropzone AI: https://itspm.ag/dropzoneai-641
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Resources
Learn more and catch more stories from RSA Conference 2025 coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/rsa-conference-usa-2025-rsac-san-francisco-usa-cybersecurity-event-infosec-conference-coverage
Steve's Session — The Machines Are Learning, But Are We?: https://path.rsaconference.com/flow/rsac/us25/FullAgenda/page/catalog/session/1727385607626001Dg4P
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Catch all of our event coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/technology-and-cybersecurity-conference-coverage
To see and hear more Redefining CyberSecurity content on ITSPmagazine, visit: https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-cybersecurity-podcast
To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
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[00:00:00]
Sean Martin: Marco,
Marco Ciappelli: You are not gonna save room broom. Come on. Come on. It's chats on the road.
Sean Martin: Wolf. Room. Room. No,
Marco Ciappelli: Well, we'll get in. We're
Sean Martin: am I room brooming? I dunno if I'm gonna room. Are we gonna room, room together? People are going, what the heck is a room? Room now?
Marco Ciappelli: I think we'll go back to the, to the origin, which is instead of flying, we will drive to
Sean Martin: think a drive up would be nice. I'll be on the west. We can drive up for sure.
Marco Ciappelli: I'm looking forward to that.
Sean Martin: Hmm.
Marco Ciappelli: So this is number one.
Sean Martin: this is our, this makes it real. This makes it real. This makes, at least from my perspective, RSA conference real, we start our chats on the road. I'm thrilled that Steve Wilson is actually kicking it off with us.
Uh, we usually do the pre, the, the kickoff with the organizers. We're still working out that session, but Steve's fantastic to have you on my friend.
Steve Wilson: Great. Thanks for having me, guys. Looking forward to the session.
Sean Martin: It's good, good to see you again. You've been on the show before. It's great [00:01:00] to have you back. And, uh, as I noted before we started recording, congrats on, uh, getting a speaking, speaking spot, not no small feet.
And the, the topic is, is pretty cool too. So, no, no, no question why you got in there.
Steve Wilson: Yeah, I.
Sean Martin: so it's gonna be fun. So a good week at RSA conference, everybody listening and watching as you know, if you follow us at all, we do the, the chats on the road series where we, we get to talk to speakers and keynotes and panelists and other folks, uh, bringing the cool stuff to the event, and we kind of explore what's going on there. And this chat's on the road is where we do that with Steve for his session. Uh, Steve, you've been on the show before, but. For folks who have not met you, maybe a few words about, uh, who you are, what you're up to, and, and, uh, then we'll get into the session.
Steve Wilson: Yeah, I think, uh. I'll probably be wearing three different hats during the session. Um, that, that all kind of inform what we're gonna talk about. So my, [00:02:00] as I, as I say it, my day job is I am the Chief Product Officer at Exabeam, which is a leader in AI driven cybersecurity. So. You know, we're a leader in the Gartner Magic Quadrant for sim.
So we do sim. The company basically invented the idea of using machine learning to do user en entity behavior analytics, and. You know, during my time here we've added generative AI and co-pilots and now working on agents, and that's tons of fun. Um, but then all my hobbies seem to also involve AI and cybersecurity in some fashion.
So, um, uh, about 18 months ago, I started a group at O osp, which is, I think how I got introduced to you originally. Sean was, uh, uh, we built the OAS top 10 for large language models and. That document got really, really popular and as a result, um, O'Reilly reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to write a book about that, [00:03:00] which, that came out a few months ago.
I think I was also on your podcast for
Sean Martin: You are,
Steve Wilson: But, uh, you know, kind of all of that learning about what's going on in AI and what's going on in cybersecurity, that's kind of the underpinnings of the talk this year.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I don't find the title very, very intriguing. I think, uh, again, it did capture the attention for sure. It's like the machine or learning are we, um, which is a big question when it comes to. The way we use it, it's, it almost make me think about technology in general, right? We use technology, we don't really know how it works, and eventually, I don't know, technology becomes something that is, uh, I don't know.
Magic, huh? Right. As, as Clark used to say, if you don't understand it, it's probably magic.
Steve Wilson: I mean, I think that's one of the things about this space is um, there's, there's always new technology. There's always some new hot startup that's out hyping what they're doing. [00:04:00] Once in a while, you get one of these super cycles where it's not one startup hyping a new thing. It's like everybody hyping something at the same time.
And you know, at one point it was the internet and then it was mobile and then it was cloud. Maybe it was cloud before mobile. But you know, there's only a few of those waves and, and now it's ai and you know, people in cybersecurity in particular, I. I'd say have a good intuitive understanding of why they want ai, but they probably don't have a deep background in it, and they're, they're struggling to figure out a strategy.
What are, what are the bad guys doing? What are the successful good guys doing? How should I be thinking about this? How should I approach it? It's a big challenge.
Sean Martin: And it's interesting, I, I, I'm trying, I was trying to find the bookmark now, but uh, just before we got on, I saw something scroll through my feed on LinkedIn. Um, fellow AI AppSec security person, uh. Deep deeply involved in helping people [00:05:00] write secure code and AI stuff, and evidently there's a study on this very point.
Are we using. Ai less to fill our brain and become smarter. But are we, are we relying less on our brain because we're using technology to accomplish different things? I'm gonna have to dig that up and actually read it now. But, um, it showed a picture of a brain where, where we think the brain is expanding and looks healthy, and then the other side it looks, it looks weak and like, is like diminishing to, to nothing.
Um. And then the machines, of course, were feeding them to become smarter. So it's, it's an interesting dilemma for sure.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, let, let's, let's apply that to, to cybersecurity and the core of
Sean Martin: Mm.
Marco Ciappelli: your talk. Of course, our goal here is to bring people to the event, so don't, don't say too much. Just do a good tease.
Steve Wilson: Yeah. Look, I think the AI and cybersecurity have this, this [00:06:00] interesting relationship. I think there are, there are two industries that have successfully deployed AI in. Difference making product, you know, profit making ways. And one of them is for better, for worse social media. You know, we all know that's, that's basically the first collision that the human race had with, with artificial intelligence was, was Facebook.
And we can debate about how good or bad that's been for us. Same thing, what's it filling your brain with? But, but it's there and people are making billions of dollars with it. Um, cybersecurity on the other hand, really, you know, for the past 10 years, people have understood that machine learning and, and baselining and understanding normal and not normal is the only way to get through these, these billions of rows of log files and other things that were, were collecting up every day.
And [00:07:00] so that, that's been real. But now there's this, now there's this super cycle that's been happening the last two years and, and now it's back to confusion. Is it, is it real? Is it not? Um, everybody sees headlines about the bad guys using this stuff. Oh, there's, there's deep fakes and there's AI driven exploit generations, and how much do I need to worry about that?
And, um, and what do these technologies should. I'd be looking at and that's the, a lot of the big questions people are asking. And at the session we'll try to go through some, some case studies and give some best practices.
Sean Martin: And so in, in the same spirit of, of, uh, becoming smarter and perhaps, uh, the. We're not, we're not here as an employee. We're not necessarily being paid to become smarter. We're being paid to have better outcomes with, [00:08:00] with the tools and brain that we have. And I think there's an opportunity for AI and automation to help us think more clearly, have better information, to think more clearly and take better action.
And one of the points we wanted to talk about was, um. Getting visibility. So I think there's so much more data access to that data analysis of that data. We have the tools now to absorb more and see more and perhaps be told more about what's happening so that we can then use that to be smarter and how we, how we take certain actions, uh, better protections, better response, whatever it may be.
So what are your thoughts on visibility and how that plays a role? In, in what we're doing here.
Steve Wilson: So visibility is, is such an important word in this area. And, and it is. There's a whole section about this in the talk. But [00:09:00] first thing is, you know, visibility doesn't just mean I can see it. It's, I can see it and I can understand it so I can act on it. Um, 'cause it's. It's one thing to say, I, I captured all the data and it generated an alert somewhere.
Does that mean you saw it or did, did it only get seen when somebody sees it, understands it and can act on that? And I think it's, it's really the latter. And so we have to differentiate those two and it's one of the reasons that we have this, um, dramatic overconfidence. In our defenders capabilities and, um, I'll, I'll share some data that, that we got out of a study we did with IDC where we went out and interviewed over a thousand CISOs or, or senior security executives.
And what we saw is, you know, when we ask them to rate their own capabilities. It [00:10:00] was really high. As a defender, I think we're doing a, a great job. But then you ask them like really hard questions like, how much of your network do you think you can see? Like the number is way lower. And it's like, how do you have super high confidence in your ability to defend when you know you have this massive visibility gap? Getting these things into, into numbers, getting people where they're able to act on them. And, and let's face it, you know, the job of a CISO is really hard and you're drowning under, um, real, real problems coming from the outside, right? You're getting attacked a thousand times a day and then you're getting. You are getting attacked by security vendors who are trying to prove their value by generating more alerts and sending them to you. And you know, if you're getting thousands of alerts from your, your AppSec tool that are telling you about 10,000 CVEs, you [00:11:00] know, I saw statistics CVEs are up 40% year over year if they're growing at 40%.
Compounded yearly, we'll have more CVEs in a year than we have humans on the planet soon. Um, so, so how, how do you deal with that and how do you separate the, the wheat from the chaff, the, the noise from the signal?
Marco Ciappelli: You know, when you were explaining the idea of so sm molded the amount that we know, that we see, I'm thinking about the space, uh, you know, we have the telescope out there and we're really looking at a, the grain of sand and we think is the oil universe. So maybe cybersecurity is not that massive, but the fact that you can say confidently, yeah, I got this.
And then you're like, yeah, well you got so little. I mean, what you're doing, you're doing good, but what the, what you are not doing. So is that a real problem, like or is like maybe a part of a space or a part [00:12:00] of the environment that maybe it's very far away from the attacker as well?
Steve Wilson: Um, so I guess here's the, here's the good news, bad news. Um, the good news is. Your cybersecurity attack surface is not as big as the entire visible universe. And, um, uh, you know, it, it always is interesting, right? You go and. You, you look at like the SETI program and people are always asking, why haven't we found the aliens yet?
And then you get down to the hard numbers and they'll tell you, well, 'cause we only looked at 2% of the sky. And, and the, the frequency bands that we're looking in are really small. And it's like, okay, we, we didn't have a lot of shot at finding anything yet, so go keep looking. On the other hand, what what we see is, um, you know, measured in, in it terms.
A large enterprise is generating a lot of data from their cybersecurity tools. You are generating, you know, terabytes [00:13:00] up into petabytes. And, you know, a little trivia fact about Exabeam, um, Exabeam is derived from the term exabyte, which is what comes after petabyte. And it was, it was always the intent that at some point we're gonna be looking at exabytes of data rather than petabytes.
So this is growing exponentially, but. One of the things we found as a strategy is you're, you're gonna need more than one kind of tool to sift through this data. And, um, you know, the first generation of this tool was these high speed machine learning algorithms that give you things like user and entity behavior analytics, and that can know cut down 90% or more of the noise that you're seeing, but with, with the amount of attacks and noise and things growing at a rate. So fast. Even when you're paring that down, your human analysts can't keep up. And that's what we see from every CISO I talk to is they're like, I can't hire enough [00:14:00] analysts to keep up with everything I'm doing. Um, uh, there aren't enough of them or they're too expensive. Those are related, right? Supply and demand.
Um, or there just aren't enough with enough experience to, to go around and so. Um, one of the things that we've found is, uh, people wanna see generative AI and large language models as the, the new solution to every problem. And, you know, it's not just cybersecurity, it's every industry. Everybody's got a new gen AI answer to your problem.
But, um, you know, between my work at Exabeam and Oasp and O'Reilly, I, I spend a lot of time with large language models and I've built up an intuition around things that they're good at and things that they're bad at. One of the things that they're worst at is dealing with really large data sets. So the idea that an LLM will help you comb through a petabyte of data is just wrong.
It's, [00:15:00] it's not gonna help, it's gonna make it worse because it's gonna overload. It's gonna make you bankrupt and it's gonna hallucinate. Um, on the other hand.
Sean Martin: seen it all. Thankfully, not the bankruptcy part, but
Steve Wilson: Well,
Sean Martin: we,
Steve Wilson: the other hand though, if you layer it on top of some of these other things that we've built, like user behavior analytics and things where we can pair down that, that petabytes of, you know, signal to.
Kilobytes of insight. Now I have something that I can take to a large language model and what the large language model can do there. You know, first, first set of goals was like, Hey, can I turn a tier one analyst into a tier two analyst? Can I bolster their skills by taking the data that they're looking at and explain it to them like a more experienced analyst would And, and we've gotten.
Like really good signals so far that that's possible. The place where we're going to is I, I think we can have agents [00:16:00] that will do the first level investigation on a security incident before the human opens it up. You're still gonna need a human in the loop before you turn off the CEO's laptop 'cause you got a.
Suspected signal that something might be funky, but boy, could you accelerate that. And so can you take the less experienced person, make them seem more experienced? Can you take the experienced person, leverage them so they can do 10 times as much so that they can help the organization? I think we can do both of those.
Marco Ciappelli: So let, let's go on the human learning part because.
Sean Martin: Yeah.
Marco Ciappelli: This is what I'm thinking. It's a, it's a, not a quantity. At least that's what I'm grasping from what you said. It's not a quantity issue, which is okay, it seems like it's great, but it's the quality. So do, can we filter all of this? Can it be the, the first line, second line, third line, then it get to the human.
But also, again, I go back to do we, are we learning something from learning about [00:17:00] machine learning and ai. Are we adopting the business, the strategy, the soc, the I mean, or are we just saying, Nope, that's gonna stay the same. I'm just gonna get more powerful stuff and, and maybe the problem is, maybe the problem is to change something at the, at the basic level.
I don't know. I'm asking you. I don't know. I don't know the answer.
Steve Wilson: I think. The, the way I think about this goes back to those, those technology waves that we've seen and this AI one. W we have to wait a few years to see how big and how disruptive this is gonna be. You know, you get the, you get the, the, you know, extremist that says this will be the last invention that humans will ever make.
Um, and that the other people who think, uh, you know, maybe it's not that overblown, but it's clearly the biggest thing since the invention of the worldwide web. And we all lived through that. Um, uh, but you [00:18:00] can, you can think back and you're like, wow, there was a day. Where I had never been on the web, and then it was like a year or two later that I couldn't imagine life without it. Then it was a few years after that that you understood the difference between Amazon and Blockbuster or, or, sorry. Uh, Netflix and Blockbuster. Or Amazon and Sears. Right. And you're like, I think on this cybersecurity front, everybody's like, okay, this is a big deal. I can turn on CNBC. All they talk about is AI instead of stocks.
You know, and I should probably figure it out, but. There, there are still people who are saying, you know, they're, they're taking this stance, it's overblown. I don't need to worry about this. I'm just gonna stick to my needing and I'm gonna do a good job at the job that I'm doing today. And then there's, you know, the people who are really leaning into it and they're saying, how do I learn about this?
How do I learn the difference between. A great demo that a vendor [00:19:00] whipped up in the back room and a set of tools that are really gonna impact my ability to defend myself. And that that's really where we get to the human learning stuff. Is the, the smart people taking advantage of this. Not only are they making themselves more effective, they're actually able to. Fast, more quickly come up a learning curve. You know, if you're a beginner at this and you have an AI over your shoulder that you can ask questions, you'll, you'll learn things. When we, when we added the ability in Exabeam to search the sim in English rather than query language, um, you know, the, the basic guys started with that, but they can actually see the, the complex query that gets generated.
From the English and, and they wind up in no time. They wind up being able to speak the native language if they wanna switch down and, and drop down into that mode. And so I think that if you do this right, you can learn from using [00:20:00] the ais, you can even learn from the ais. And the ais will, will learn more from us and we'll, we'll see them continue to get smarter for the next few years for sure.
Sean Martin: So the one, one thing I've been hearing recently, even as recent as today, is that executives and their leadership team and their. Yeah. Uh, practitioners are finding that the, the uniqueness of their environments, the uniqueness, uniqueness of their business, uniqueness of their, uh, systems and, and data sets are pushing them to build bespoke systems for a lot of things, including cybersecurity.
Steve Wilson: Mm-hmm.
Sean Martin: Um, because the, the. The generally built solutions on market can't easily, [00:21:00] as easily be fine tuned to meet the business requirements and operational requirements versus them building it using systems in house and and because it's easy to write, no code, low code with LLMs and access to their data sets, which would be a pain to connect third party systems to as well.
I guess my point is. I think we will, we will learn how to adapt technology for ourselves within our businesses. Far better than a lot of, than a lot of the commercial stuff. We'll be able to, no, I think we're gonna need components within there. Sensors, maybe some, some agents in there and some shims and platforms to kind of help orchestrate all this stuff, perhaps.
But I think businesses are learning. That they need to connect the technology directly to their business and not just shoehorn in stuff that, uh, they've been told they need [00:22:00] for their business.
Steve Wilson: Yeah, I, I see a couple different layers of this and um, you know, one of them is you have, you have some really big companies out there selling cybersecurity stuff, whether it's the pure play, big public cybersecurity vendors or, or the hyperscaler cloud providers that are now trying to sell security stuff too.
And they will just show up and they go, I've got it all worked out. I've got it all prepackaged. Just buy all this stuff from me and you got everything you need. And, and that's where I see a lot of, uh, people in the industry pushing back on. I, I don't believe that. And, and they've all learned hard lessons about monocultures in cybersecurity anyway.
That's, you know, you get totally dependent on one thing. Uh, you're gonna, you're gonna get bit by it. But, um. do think there's, there's definitely the trend that you say, which is the ability [00:23:00] for individuals to develop things that they couldn't develop. You know, we've, we've had low code tools of some sort forever, you know, going back to visual basic and things like that.
But, uh, but it's a dramatic increase now in the ability to build real stuff now that we have more of these AI driven tools. Um. But I think in, in some ways, going back to one of these previous wave waves, when you go through cloud computing, there was a point at which a lot of these larger companies said, yeah, I kind of see the advantage of the cloud thing.
I. But I'm gonna do it myself. And we went through a generation of years of people overspending on OpenStack and, you know, racks of, of Dell servers and things building their own clouds. And at, and at the end of the day, basically nobody, that didn't wind up being a good idea for [00:24:00] anybody. Um, and
Sean Martin: argued over on-premise or on. Premises.
Steve Wilson: People still have some things on-prem, but they don't talk about it like they're gonna run their own computing utility. They have some stuff on-prem 'cause they need some stuff. OnPrem. If you need a compute utility, go to somebody who's professional at building it. I think it's gonna be the same with cybersecurity tools.
We're not gonna move into a a cottage industry of people crafting their own, but what they will do is tailor them to their environments much more effectively with the new tools that are available to them.
Marco Ciappelli: Well, lots and lots to talk about. That's why we go to conferences and talk to our peers and network and listen to great presentation like I'm sure yours going to be. So I wanna invite everybody now. I am not sure we even have a, a date and a time and a room for, for this. Do we,
Steve Wilson: Oh, it's on Monday. Hold on, let
Marco Ciappelli: All right, because maybe you know something we didn't know from the website 'cause we're way [00:25:00] early and that's what we like to do anyway.
But, uh, while you look, I'm gonna make the call Moscone Center. Of course, you know that if you've been at RSA conference before, I think Sean and I have been there a few times already. Um, great place, great conference center, and this time is April 28th to May 1st. So a little bit earlier than last year.
And, uh, we're gonna gather there to unite, innovate, and shine, uh, with the RSA conference community. And as we do that, let's see if with Steve, we know when, uh, when is session is gonna be, and if not, what? We'll add it.
Steve Wilson: but we'll find it.
Marco Ciappelli: We'll find it. Okay. So we'll,
Steve Wilson: Definitely
Marco Ciappelli: put in. All right. All right. See, we're way early ahead of the game as we like to be.
So everybody just stay tuned and, uh, we do have a page where you can actually check all our coverage and, uh, we keep it [00:26:00] updated with all the agenda and the speakers, keynotes and all of that. Sean, what,
Sean Martin: has a profile. Sorry, what's that?
Marco Ciappelli: What's that page? How did
Sean Martin: Oh, for RSA, uh, well, it's a huge long URL of course, but you can always go to itspmagazine.com/rsac you'll get all, you'll always get the latest RSA conference coverage from us there. Uh, Steve, Steve has a profile on. The RSA conference.com site, which we'll include, which once his session is live, we'll be available there.
So you can always check and and find it out there. So Marco, I'm, uh, I'm excited, uh, for this year's event. We have a lot planned. I. We have a, we have some good space, uh, reserved for a lot of briefings and brand stories, and of course we, we do a ton of stuff beforehand with our chats on the road. So I'm excited for this year and excited for all the conversations we're gonna have.
And, uh, of course, looking forward to seeing everybody. Steve, it's [00:27:00] fantastic to, uh, see you and have you on For our, for our first episode is our chats on the road, coverage on location. And, uh, look forward to seeing you there and, uh, your, your session as well.
Steve Wilson: Awesome. Thanks guys for having me and I'll look forward to, uh, seeing you in San Francisco.
Sean Martin: Absolutely.
Marco Ciappelli: much.
Sean Martin: All right, thanks everybody. Stay, uh, stay tuned, subscribe, follow, share with your friends and, uh, family and enemies, and, uh, we'll see you all soon. Cheers.